diff --git a/cereal/log.capnp b/cereal/log.capnp
index d849f4840b..dcf9463ac8 100644
--- a/cereal/log.capnp
+++ b/cereal/log.capnp
@@ -336,9 +336,9 @@ enum LaneChangeDirection {
 
 struct CanData {
   address @0 :UInt32;
-  busTime @1 :UInt16;
   dat     @2 :Data;
   src     @3 :UInt8;
+  busTimeDEPRECATED @1 :UInt16;
 }
 
 struct DeviceState @0xa4d8b5af2aa492eb {
diff --git a/opendbc b/opendbc
index cff2af8ff8..8e9d368841 160000
--- a/opendbc
+++ b/opendbc
@@ -1 +1 @@
-Subproject commit cff2af8ff8690466109f56be62129ebfb85cd5dc
+Subproject commit 8e9d3688412405154a8189c421cfdc9d5feea715
diff --git a/panda b/panda
index f6375848ca..8c3bb0151e 160000
--- a/panda
+++ b/panda
@@ -1 +1 @@
-Subproject commit f6375848ca393a9483921665b6a2d131d7ec9b20
+Subproject commit 8c3bb0151e8907ade344ccb293d58cd543e28baa
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/__init__.py b/selfdrive/car/__init__.py
index 87d43831e6..28ec4ad187 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/__init__.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/__init__.py
@@ -189,7 +189,7 @@ def get_friction(lateral_accel_error: float, lateral_accel_deadzone: float, fric
 
 
 def make_can_msg(addr, dat, bus):
-  return [addr, 0, dat, bus]
+  return [addr, dat, bus]
 
 
 def make_tester_present_msg(addr, bus, subaddr=None, suppress_response=False):
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/ford/fordcan.py b/selfdrive/car/ford/fordcan.py
index 2cfd61a191..46d09ec22d 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/ford/fordcan.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/ford/fordcan.py
@@ -112,7 +112,7 @@ def create_lat_ctl2_msg(packer, CAN: CanBus, mode: int, path_offset: float, path
   }
 
   # calculate checksum
-  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LateralMotionControl2", 0, values)[2]
+  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LateralMotionControl2", 0, values)[1]
   values["LatCtlPath_No_Cs"] = calculate_lat_ctl2_checksum(mode, counter, dat)
 
   return packer.make_can_msg("LateralMotionControl2", CAN.main, values)
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/gm/gmcan.py b/selfdrive/car/gm/gmcan.py
index e833e77636..a70bcccd06 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/gm/gmcan.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/gm/gmcan.py
@@ -64,7 +64,7 @@ def create_gas_regen_command(packer, bus, throttle, idx, enabled, at_full_stop):
     "GasRegenAlwaysOne3": 1,
   }
 
-  dat = packer.make_can_msg("ASCMGasRegenCmd", bus, values)[2]
+  dat = packer.make_can_msg("ASCMGasRegenCmd", bus, values)[1]
   values["GasRegenChecksum"] = (((0xff - dat[1]) & 0xff) << 16) | \
                                (((0xff - dat[2]) & 0xff) << 8) | \
                                ((0x100 - dat[3] - idx) & 0xff)
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/hyundai/hyundaican.py b/selfdrive/car/hyundai/hyundaican.py
index b4b951f89e..d2002e23e0 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/hyundai/hyundaican.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/hyundai/hyundaican.py
@@ -77,7 +77,7 @@ def create_lkas11(packer, frame, CP, apply_steer, steer_req,
     # Genesis and Optima fault when forwarding while engaged
     values["CF_Lkas_LdwsActivemode"] = 2
 
-  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LKAS11", 0, values)[2]
+  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LKAS11", 0, values)[1]
 
   if CP.flags & HyundaiFlags.CHECKSUM_CRC8:
     # CRC Checksum as seen on 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe
@@ -156,7 +156,7 @@ def create_acc_commands(packer, enabled, accel, upper_jerk, idx, hud_control, se
     scc12_values["CF_VSM_ConfMode"] = 1
     scc12_values["AEB_Status"] = 1  # AEB disabled
 
-  scc12_dat = packer.make_can_msg("SCC12", 0, scc12_values)[2]
+  scc12_dat = packer.make_can_msg("SCC12", 0, scc12_values)[1]
   scc12_values["CR_VSM_ChkSum"] = 0x10 - sum(sum(divmod(i, 16)) for i in scc12_dat) % 0x10
 
   commands.append(packer.make_can_msg("SCC12", 0, scc12_values))
@@ -181,7 +181,7 @@ def create_acc_commands(packer, enabled, accel, upper_jerk, idx, hud_control, se
       "FCA_DrvSetStatus": 1,
       "FCA_Status": 1,  # AEB disabled
     }
-    fca11_dat = packer.make_can_msg("FCA11", 0, fca11_values)[2]
+    fca11_dat = packer.make_can_msg("FCA11", 0, fca11_values)[1]
     fca11_values["CR_FCA_ChkSum"] = hyundai_checksum(fca11_dat[:7])
     commands.append(packer.make_can_msg("FCA11", 0, fca11_values))
 
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/isotp_parallel_query.py b/selfdrive/car/isotp_parallel_query.py
index 447c7093c5..b5158f2126 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/isotp_parallel_query.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/isotp_parallel_query.py
@@ -27,7 +27,7 @@ class IsoTpParallelQuery:
       assert tx_addr not in FUNCTIONAL_ADDRS, f"Functional address should be defined in functional_addrs: {hex(tx_addr)}"
 
     self.msg_addrs = {tx_addr: get_rx_addr_for_tx_addr(tx_addr[0], rx_offset=response_offset) for tx_addr in real_addrs}
-    self.msg_buffer: dict[int, list[tuple[int, int, bytes, int]]] = defaultdict(list)
+    self.msg_buffer: dict[int, list[tuple[int, bytes, int]]] = defaultdict(list)
 
   def rx(self):
     """Drain can socket and sort messages into buffers based on address"""
@@ -36,11 +36,11 @@ class IsoTpParallelQuery:
     for packet in can_packets:
       for msg in packet.can:
         if msg.src == self.bus and msg.address in self.msg_addrs.values():
-          self.msg_buffer[msg.address].append((msg.address, msg.busTime, msg.dat, msg.src))
+          self.msg_buffer[msg.address].append((msg.address, msg.dat, msg.src))
 
   def _can_tx(self, tx_addr, dat, bus):
     """Helper function to send single message"""
-    msg = [tx_addr, 0, dat, bus]
+    msg = [tx_addr, dat, bus]
     self.sendcan.send(can_list_to_can_capnp([msg], msgtype='sendcan'))
 
   def _can_rx(self, addr, sub_addr=None):
@@ -53,7 +53,7 @@ class IsoTpParallelQuery:
       # Filter based on subadress
       msgs = []
       for m in self.msg_buffer[addr]:
-        first_byte = m[2][0]
+        first_byte = m[1][0]
         if first_byte == sub_addr:
           msgs.append(m)
         else:
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/nissan/nissancan.py b/selfdrive/car/nissan/nissancan.py
index b9a1b4f843..28fb01d7e3 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/nissan/nissancan.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/nissan/nissancan.py
@@ -15,7 +15,7 @@ def create_steering_control(packer, apply_steer, frame, steer_on, lkas_max_torqu
     "LKA_ACTIVE": steer_on,
   }
 
-  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LKAS", 0, values)[2]
+  dat = packer.make_can_msg("LKAS", 0, values)[1]
 
   values["CHECKSUM"] = nissan_checksum(dat[:7])
   return packer.make_can_msg("LKAS", 0, values)
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/subaru/subarucan.py b/selfdrive/car/subaru/subarucan.py
index 86d39ff885..41bd177ff2 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/subaru/subarucan.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/subaru/subarucan.py
@@ -279,7 +279,7 @@ def create_es_static_2(packer):
 # *** Subaru Pre-global ***
 
 def subaru_preglobal_checksum(packer, values, addr, checksum_byte=7):
-  dat = packer.make_can_msg(addr, 0, values)[2]
+  dat = packer.make_can_msg(addr, 0, values)[1]
   return (sum(dat[:checksum_byte]) + sum(dat[checksum_byte+1:])) % 256
 
 
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/tesla/teslacan.py b/selfdrive/car/tesla/teslacan.py
index 6bb27b995f..f8cd138e77 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/tesla/teslacan.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/tesla/teslacan.py
@@ -25,7 +25,7 @@ class TeslaCAN:
       "DAS_steeringControlCounter": counter,
     }
 
-    data = self.packer.make_can_msg("DAS_steeringControl", CANBUS.chassis, values)[2]
+    data = self.packer.make_can_msg("DAS_steeringControl", CANBUS.chassis, values)[1]
     values["DAS_steeringControlChecksum"] = self.checksum(0x488, data[:3])
     return self.packer.make_can_msg("DAS_steeringControl", CANBUS.chassis, values)
 
@@ -69,7 +69,7 @@ class TeslaCAN:
       values["SpdCtrlLvr_Stat"] = 1
       values["MC_STW_ACTN_RQ"] = counter
 
-    data = self.packer.make_can_msg("STW_ACTN_RQ", bus, values)[2]
+    data = self.packer.make_can_msg("STW_ACTN_RQ", bus, values)[1]
     values["CRC_STW_ACTN_RQ"] = self.crc(data[:7])
     return self.packer.make_can_msg("STW_ACTN_RQ", bus, values)
 
@@ -88,7 +88,7 @@ class TeslaCAN:
     }
 
     for packer, bus in [(self.packer, CANBUS.chassis), (self.pt_packer, CANBUS.powertrain)]:
-      data = packer.make_can_msg("DAS_control", bus, values)[2]
+      data = packer.make_can_msg("DAS_control", bus, values)[1]
       values["DAS_controlChecksum"] = self.checksum(0x2b9, data[:7])
       messages.append(packer.make_can_msg("DAS_control", bus, values))
     return messages
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/tests/test_models.py b/selfdrive/car/tests/test_models.py
index 02e99f0b82..1d05b7c731 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/tests/test_models.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/tests/test_models.py
@@ -297,7 +297,7 @@ class TestCarModelBase(unittest.TestCase):
 
         now_nanos += DT_CTRL * 1e9
         msgs_sent += len(sendcan)
-        for addr, _, dat, bus in sendcan:
+        for addr, dat, bus in sendcan:
           to_send = libpanda_py.make_CANPacket(addr, bus % 4, dat)
           self.assertTrue(self.safety.safety_tx_hook(to_send), (addr, dat, bus))
 
diff --git a/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py b/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
index 14b0788a3d..51b9887c96 100644
--- a/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
+++ b/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
@@ -90,7 +90,7 @@ def test_startup_alert(expected_event, car_model, fw_versions, brand):
   managed_processes['card'].start()
 
   assert pm.wait_for_readers_to_update('can', 5)
-  pm.send('can', can_list_to_can_capnp([[0, 0, b"", 0]]))
+  pm.send('can', can_list_to_can_capnp([[0, b"", 0]]))
 
   assert pm.wait_for_readers_to_update('pandaStates', 5)
   msg = messaging.new_message('pandaStates', 1)
@@ -103,7 +103,7 @@ def test_startup_alert(expected_event, car_model, fw_versions, brand):
   else:
     finger = _FINGERPRINTS[car_model][0]
 
-  msgs = [[addr, 0, b'\x00'*length, 0] for addr, length in finger.items()]
+  msgs = [[addr, b'\x00'*length, 0] for addr, length in finger.items()]
   for _ in range(1000):
     # card waits for pandad to echo back that it has changed the multiplexing mode
     if not params.get_bool("ObdMultiplexingChanged"):
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/__init__.py b/selfdrive/pandad/__init__.py
index 8081a62dd0..2c80cd03c4 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/__init__.py
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/__init__.py
@@ -6,5 +6,5 @@ def can_capnp_to_can_list(can, src_filter=None):
   ret = []
   for msg in can:
     if src_filter is None or msg.src in src_filter:
-      ret.append((msg.address, msg.busTime, msg.dat, msg.src))
+      ret.append((msg.address, msg.dat, msg.src))
   return ret
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/can_list_to_can_capnp.cc b/selfdrive/pandad/can_list_to_can_capnp.cc
index 9fc2648da2..d73541c17f 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/can_list_to_can_capnp.cc
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/can_list_to_can_capnp.cc
@@ -10,7 +10,6 @@ void can_list_to_can_capnp_cpp(const std::vector<can_frame> &can_list, std::stri
   for (auto it = can_list.begin(); it != can_list.end(); it++, j++) {
     auto c = canData[j];
     c.setAddress(it->address);
-    c.setBusTime(it->busTime);
     c.setDat(kj::arrayPtr((uint8_t*)it->dat.data(), it->dat.size()));
     c.setSrc(it->src);
   }
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/panda.cc b/selfdrive/pandad/panda.cc
index fcb4ac67a4..ed5ee62501 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/panda.cc
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/panda.cc
@@ -257,7 +257,6 @@ bool Panda::unpack_can_buffer(uint8_t *data, uint32_t &size, std::vector<can_fra
     }
 
     can_frame &canData = out_vec.emplace_back();
-    canData.busTime = 0;
     canData.address = header.addr;
     canData.src = header.bus + bus_offset;
     if (header.rejected) {
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/panda.h b/selfdrive/pandad/panda.h
index 7e1e4706d6..26ad4dc32c 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/panda.h
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/panda.h
@@ -39,7 +39,6 @@ struct __attribute__((packed)) can_header {
 struct can_frame {
   long address;
   std::string dat;
-  long busTime;
   long src;
 };
 
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/pandad.cc b/selfdrive/pandad/pandad.cc
index 095a7893b4..3fc89569c1 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/pandad.cc
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/pandad.cc
@@ -219,7 +219,6 @@ void can_recv_thread(std::vector<Panda *> pandas) {
     auto canData = evt.initCan(raw_can_data.size());
     for (uint i = 0; i<raw_can_data.size(); i++) {
       canData[i].setAddress(raw_can_data[i].address);
-      canData[i].setBusTime(raw_can_data[i].busTime);
       canData[i].setDat(kj::arrayPtr((uint8_t*)raw_can_data[i].dat.data(), raw_can_data[i].dat.size()));
       canData[i].setSrc(raw_can_data[i].src);
     }
diff --git a/selfdrive/pandad/pandad_api_impl.pyx b/selfdrive/pandad/pandad_api_impl.pyx
index cbac8cc5a3..dd3f3d702f 100644
--- a/selfdrive/pandad/pandad_api_impl.pyx
+++ b/selfdrive/pandad/pandad_api_impl.pyx
@@ -8,7 +8,6 @@ cdef extern from "panda.h":
   cdef struct can_frame:
     long address
     string dat
-    long busTime
     long src
 
 cdef extern from "can_list_to_can_capnp.cc":
@@ -22,9 +21,8 @@ def can_list_to_can_capnp(can_msgs, msgtype='can', valid=True):
   for can_msg in can_msgs:
     f = &(can_list.emplace_back())
     f.address = can_msg[0]
-    f.busTime = can_msg[1]
-    f.dat = can_msg[2]
-    f.src = can_msg[3]
+    f.dat = can_msg[1]
+    f.src = can_msg[2]
 
   cdef string out
   can_list_to_can_capnp_cpp(can_list, out, msgtype == 'sendcan', valid)
diff --git a/system/webrtc/tests/test_stream_session.py b/system/webrtc/tests/test_stream_session.py
index 46d55ecd90..113fa5e7e6 100644
--- a/system/webrtc/tests/test_stream_session.py
+++ b/system/webrtc/tests/test_stream_session.py
@@ -49,7 +49,7 @@ class TestStreamSession:
   def test_incoming_proxy(self, mocker):
     tested_msgs = [
       {"type": "customReservedRawData0", "data": "test"}, # primitive
-      {"type": "can", "data": [{"address": 0, "busTime": 0, "dat": "", "src": 0}]}, # list
+      {"type": "can", "data": [{"address": 0, "dat": "", "src": 0}]}, # list
       {"type": "testJoystick", "data": {"axes": [0, 0], "buttons": [False]}}, # dict
     ]
 
diff --git a/tools/cabana/streams/pandastream.cc b/tools/cabana/streams/pandastream.cc
index cdf6da6d83..b2a006b22f 100644
--- a/tools/cabana/streams/pandastream.cc
+++ b/tools/cabana/streams/pandastream.cc
@@ -66,7 +66,6 @@ void PandaStream::streamThread() {
     auto canData = evt.initCan(raw_can_data.size());
     for (uint i = 0; i<raw_can_data.size(); i++) {
       canData[i].setAddress(raw_can_data[i].address);
-      canData[i].setBusTime(raw_can_data[i].busTime);
       canData[i].setDat(kj::arrayPtr((uint8_t*)raw_can_data[i].dat.data(), raw_can_data[i].dat.size()));
       canData[i].setSrc(raw_can_data[i].src);
     }