diff --git a/cereal b/cereal
index 85e1e2f79c..cde8667d3b 160000
--- a/cereal
+++ b/cereal
@@ -1 +1 @@
-Subproject commit 85e1e2f79cffc4df307e29b118a76adc4226b52f
+Subproject commit cde8667d3bacb71d324b06b3d803c8fd7c59d2db
diff --git a/selfdrive/car/car_helpers.py b/selfdrive/car/car_helpers.py
index 337da6db81..ba214410db 100644
--- a/selfdrive/car/car_helpers.py
+++ b/selfdrive/car/car_helpers.py
@@ -13,14 +13,17 @@ from cereal import car
 EventName = car.CarEvent.EventName
 
 
-def get_startup_event(car_recognized, controller_available, fuzzy_fingerprint):
+def get_startup_event(car_recognized, controller_available, fuzzy_fingerprint, fw_seen):
   if comma_remote and tested_branch:
     event = EventName.startup
   else:
     event = EventName.startupMaster
 
   if not car_recognized:
-    event = EventName.startupNoCar
+    if fw_seen:
+      event = EventName.startupNoCar
+    else:
+      event = EventName.startupNoFw
   elif car_recognized and not controller_available:
     event = EventName.startupNoControl
   elif car_recognized and fuzzy_fingerprint:
diff --git a/selfdrive/controls/controlsd.py b/selfdrive/controls/controlsd.py
index 21ecc47a72..6608ce3c2e 100755
--- a/selfdrive/controls/controlsd.py
+++ b/selfdrive/controls/controlsd.py
@@ -145,7 +145,8 @@ class Controls:
     # TODO: no longer necessary, aside from process replay
     self.sm['liveParameters'].valid = True
 
-    self.startup_event = get_startup_event(car_recognized, controller_available, self.CP.fuzzyFingerprint)
+    self.startup_event = get_startup_event(car_recognized, controller_available, self.CP.fuzzyFingerprint,
+                                           len(self.CP.carFw) > 0)
 
     if not sounds_available:
       self.events.add(EventName.soundsUnavailable, static=True)
diff --git a/selfdrive/controls/lib/events.py b/selfdrive/controls/lib/events.py
index b1e0042e1e..62e9dab769 100644
--- a/selfdrive/controls/lib/events.py
+++ b/selfdrive/controls/lib/events.py
@@ -268,6 +268,14 @@ EVENTS: Dict[int, Dict[str, Union[Alert, Callable[[Any, messaging.SubMaster, boo
     ET.PERMANENT: startup_fuzzy_fingerprint_alert,
   },
 
+  EventName.startupNoFw: {
+    ET.PERMANENT: Alert(
+      "Car Unrecognized",
+      "Check All Connections",
+      AlertStatus.userPrompt, AlertSize.mid,
+      Priority.LOWER, VisualAlert.none, AudibleAlert.none, 0., 0., 15.),
+  },
+
   EventName.dashcamMode: {
     ET.PERMANENT: Alert(
       "Dashcam Mode",
diff --git a/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py b/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
index 4780ca777e..5c63755467 100755
--- a/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
+++ b/selfdrive/controls/tests/test_startup.py
@@ -58,9 +58,13 @@ class TestStartup(unittest.TestCase):
     (EventName.startupNoControl, MAZDA.CX5, True, CX5_FW_VERSIONS),
     (EventName.startupNoControl, MAZDA.CX5, False, CX5_FW_VERSIONS),
 
+    # unrecognized car with no fw
+    (EventName.startupNoFw, None, True, None),
+    (EventName.startupNoFw, None, False, None),
+
     # unrecognized car
-    (EventName.startupNoCar, None, True, None),
-    (EventName.startupNoCar, None, False, None),
+    (EventName.startupNoCar, None, True, COROLLA_FW_VERSIONS[:1]),
+    (EventName.startupNoCar, None, False, COROLLA_FW_VERSIONS[:1]),
 
     # fuzzy match
     (EventName.startupFuzzyFingerprint, TOYOTA.COROLLA, True, COROLLA_FW_VERSIONS_FUZZY),